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LotteryTicket
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Registered: 02/07/09
Posts: 246

    05/11/09 at 09:44 AM
Reply with quote#1

Season 5 will end with a two-hour finale on Wednesday, May 13 titled "The Incident". It will be preceded by a clip show, but since I am spoiler-free, I'm not sure if it has a title.

Post you thoughts here on this episode. There is a thread on the board for predictions on the finale if you still want to post your best guess as to what's about to happen to our Losties.

Hope you will stop into the CHAT room during or after the airing. Just click "CHAT" above in the header. You must log-in first.

woo
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Registered: 02/05/09
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    05/13/09 at 07:12 PM
Reply with quote#2

Just got finished....







and WOW! What a mindbender!

The first 115 minutes are boring, but the last 5 minutes have sent my mind spinning!



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LotteryTicket
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    05/13/09 at 07:59 PM
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Interesting. I will post tomorrow so as not to spoil. The acting was superb, the direction was questionable. My single word to describe the show is "choice".
Clay
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    05/13/09 at 11:53 PM
Reply with quote#4

First off I must say...holy frakking crap! So many possibilities going on right now. This show just blew my mind again.

And I will now totally rejoice in the knowledge that Christian Shephard never "spoke on behalf" of Jacob. In fact I'm guessing when Ben took original Locke to the Jacob's Cabin and John picked up the black ash surrounding it, the "loophole" process was started and Jacob had to flea to the Statue location which was his last stronghold. Thus the "help me,"to John. The panic stricken eye looking back at Hurley through the cabin while Christian was calmly rocking back and forth in the chair, lends credence to the idea that Jacob had to find a new sanctuary.

I'm still a little bummed that Ben's whole act of leadership was essentially a charade. I'm still not 100% sure about that whole business. That seemed like some major retcon to me. Aside from that amazing season ender.  I'll be talking more later I'm sure.

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DustinCahill
Registered: 05/14/09
Posts: 1

    05/14/09 at 12:17 AM
Reply with quote#5

Three points (I posted a bit of the first on the Comments section), the first one has to do with the name being applied to the dude on the beach with Jacob (who I agree Christian seemed to be "serving" - I say that because I believe there is an element of that person duplicated by the Monster in there). Second, I agree that bit with Ben seemed a bit of a retcon (though note he did acknowledge he received orders from Jacob, just not having actually seen the guy). Finally, any claims I make about the Monster in here, I'm not refuting that Black Shirt guy has control of it, just that we have seen the Monster can be "summoned" in at least one episode (The Shape of Things to Come) so there seems to be evidence that it isn't simply that one guy, but a tool for that one guy to operate.

 

1. The scene of The Incident was very familiar. Why? Because we've heard the noises before, of the crane and those rattling chains, of people losing arms and that roaring magnetic warble, and the image of people being dragged into holes. That is the actions of the Monster ina nutshell. You see, the Incident wasn't just the drilling into pocket of electromagnetic energy, it was drilling into a cage of energy containing an ancient force (the same force that Anubis was depicted as being at odds with) that had been trapped. Then an Atomic Bomb brought it freedom. That freedom was the 'merging', if you will, between this ancient force and the bomb's energy, imbuing the Monster (or perhaps even sending it back in time with) a more tangible existence (it always possessed those abilities of taking forms of absorbed people and scanning people's minds). We've seen Eko get pummeled as if he were lifted by a crane, we've seen the pilot get lifted up onto a tree, we've seen a chain drag Locke and Montand's into hole's (with the same sounds as in the Incident). The connections probably go on and on. The best part is, Locke described the Monster as being "beautiful". Is this because Locke recognized in it a weapon? If so, is Locke an Adrian Veidt character with Rorschach sensibilities? (Locke of old saw the world in very Dichtomatic terms: Man of Science/Man of Faith, Hunter/Farmer). Could the final endgame of Locke (now imprinted into the Smoke Monster though without absorbing the body somehow like with Yemi and Christian) bring new meaning to the subtitle to Homeward Bound 2: Lost in New York (as well as Daniel Dae Kim and Michael Emerson's visions of where they would set Lost if not on an island) as he brings the Monster off Island to bring some SmokeyJudgement Sensibilities to the world at large, in an attempt to subvert the fated end of the world ala Veidt from Watchmen?

2. Second, I am not calling the man on the beach with Jacob Esau. Why? Because its a rather silly name to give him as it has very little reality to it aside from the neatness of the biblical brothers. I understand Esau was respected as a Hunter and Jacob as a Tent Dweller (and Jacob had a son named Benjamin). But there isn't any real depth there, as far as I see.

 I will call him Moses instead. The actual conversation they had hinted at Jacob wishing to maintain a comfortable, slow measured pace to preventing the end of the world, and Moses Guy wanted to have a quick fix, a "loop-hole". Well, Jacob may be allegorically closer to his biblical namesake, Moses guy doesn't have to be his brother. Moses led the chosen people out of Egypt. Egypt has a cyclical nature due to its relationship to the Nile (The Island). This is closer to Moses Guys's intention from the opening, that is freeing themselves or the world from the cyclical time loop they are trapped in. Maybe in this allegory, Jacob is just the half of Moses that is enjoying being an Egyptian prince. Also, I found Jacob not speaking with a older style of speech strange. Thus, I am going to posit that Jacob is in fact a time traveling Aaron (possibly relating to my third point). Physically, he's totally there, it lends itself to the conversations had about Aaron in the past, and while I don't believe these two brothers, I think the reference to Locke later in the episode by Ben as "Moses parting the waters" is a hint by the writers to Jacob's true identity.

 

3. I read a theory that 815 was never supposed to crash. But Aijira 316 was always suppose to land with several of out Losties, including Aaron. I believe now more than ever that to be true. I think 815 crashing (which Jacob hadn't seen yet when on the beach with Moses guy) was Moses Guy's "loop-hole". With it, the Oceanic 6 (minus Sun, I'm guessing) arrived earlier than they were expected (see the state of the Runway when 815 crashes versus 316 landing). That is why Jacob had Ben sit on them, rather than exterminate them. Then, when Moses Guy trapped Jacob using Christian and informed Locke (Ben) to move the Island, phase 2 was begun: rewrite the past to change the realities of the situation entirely, so course correction wouldn't need to fix it (since it already had been changed in the future, with 815 crashing - though another possibility was this was Jacob's attempt to counter Moses Guy). Either way, the O6 were needed to rewrite events (note they weren't necessarily in the past like Sawyer, Miles, and Juilet were) to favor Moses Guy or Jacob (whoever controls Christian) and permanently alter the timeline or maintain it in a last ditch effort by Jacob. The biggest result of 815 crashing was Aaron (aka Jacob) not arriving on 316, thus never going back in time to maintain the loop. Moses Guy has ended the loop. Things have changed in the 2007 we have seen, and Jacob can die. And who are "coming"? as Jacob mentioned. It is the original 316ers, meaning either his last ditch plan with Jack and the bomb reset things or they represent the endgame between these two, but now without Aaron present. I'm confusing myself, but there is something here, I swears! Part of this point was to show why Jack was not "on the list", I think. 

Harriet
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Registered: 04/22/09
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    05/14/09 at 04:15 AM
Reply with quote#6

Dustin, wow!

"The scene of The Incident was very familiar."  I love your whole explanation of how the sound of the smoke monster is the sound of the Incident.  So you are saying that the smoke monster was released during the Incident?

"The biggest result of 815 crashing was Aaron (aka Jacob) not arriving on 316, thus never going back in time to maintain the loop."  This one is interesting too.  I'm not sure how you got to the conclusion that Aaron is Jacob.  Are you just saying that he is the replacement for Jacob?  Aaron was already born when Jacob appears to Sayid at the time of Nadia's death.  But I like the theory of 815 crashing being a loophole.  That fits with everything we have seen so far.

The way I interpreted the finale was that these events have occured over and over, but there is some major factor that changed this time and allowed the time loop to end.  I thought it was the presence of some person that hadn't been there before (most likely Hurley or Juliet).  I believe that Juliet's flashback last night was the only one in which Jacob didn't appear.  So did he know about the pasts and existence of everyone else but her?  But having the whole 815 crash be the new element is also a plausible theory. 


LotteryTicket
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    05/14/09 at 07:48 AM
Reply with quote#7

Agreed about Smokey. The temple security system adding the collapsing Swan Station drilling equipment to it's inventory. Does that mean that Juliet has been added as well? If so, will her memories/soul be helpful to the O6ers in the future?

The bad twins. I will call them Jacob and Esau for now.

Jacob can manifest himself in the real world. He must have touched some of the Black Rock crew and guided them to the island cir. 1800s. He can heal the sick and inflicted (Locke, Ilana). Both Esau and Jacob are free to roam the island in 1800s. We see Jacob off island in '70s and can assume that he has always been able to leave the island. Can Esau leave? Jacob interacts with Kate, Sawyer, Jack, Hurley - the list. Hurley is the last to have a visit with him 2007 before boarding Ajira 316. He gives Hurley the guitar. He gives Kate the lunch box where she keeps the plane, he gives Sawyer the pen to write the letter, he gives Jack an Apollo candy bar (?) He touches Locke, Sayid, Ilana maybe others (I'll have to rewatch).

In 2004 we see Ben showing Locke "Jacob's" cabin. He asks for help from Locke, but doesn't get it. Hurley disturbs the ash and releases Jacob. Esau moves into the cabin in the form of Shephard. Locke returns to the cabin via instructions from Horace/Esau and now gets instructions to move the island. Locke gets Ben to do this. Ben thinks it is a command from Jacob. Island skipping stops in 1954, 2007, 2004, 1974 all necessary to perpetuate the Lock Loophole and Locke's willingness to kill himself and Ben's knowledge that he should bring dead Locke back on Ajira 316. Where Smokey/Esau can take his form and convince Ben to kill (Ben's instructions from Smokey/Alex to follow and not kill Smokey/Locke).

Ilana's mission is still not clear. If her mission is to find Locke's body and bring it to Jacob and Locke shows up on the beach alive, she must have had some indication that this was a false Locke. Which seems to me to indicated that Jacob knew Locke's body would be taken by Esau from Ajira 316.

Esau's game is to kill Jacob. He can't do it himself. He must find a loophole in the Book of Laws. Which he does in the form of Ben via Locke. Game over.

Jacob warns Esau that "they're coming." Why? Does he mean Ilana's group (Others) or Hurley, Kate, Jack, Sawyer from 1977? Or all of them?

But generally very disappointed in the direction of the show to fable and particularly godlike characters, although this is exactly where the forum discussions back in Season 1 told us we were headed.

The loss of the P. Chang video released at Comic-Con as non-cannon really bugs me.

I suppose that the repeated loops created by Esau will be explored, and maybe explain the variations in story lines on the island. But that does explain the "real world" variations. He continues to recycle people until he finally gets the result he wanted?

Again, to what end. Control of the island? Release from the island? Who does Esau and Jacob answer to? If Ben had made the choice of free-will not to kill, would that have reset the game?

Are Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sawyer variables in Jacob's game that Esau doesn't see coming?

If the island is finally rid of Esau and Jacob, what happens to the island?

The answer to the question of who lies in the shadow, "He who will save us all." In Latin, of course.

Just on a non mythology point of view: I was sad to see a real dead Locke again. The death of Juliet, which was certainly a given via the red shirt, was extraordinary and maybe go down as one of my favorites scenes right next to the Penny/Desmond phone call in the Constant. Love found, love lost. Juliet turned out to be THE character for Season 5. I am hoping that Esau/Smokey will experience a 'change' of heart now that's she's be incorporated.


MalcolmParaffin
Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 1

    05/14/09 at 07:58 AM
Reply with quote#8

What killed me was how Sacramento Direct TV crapped out for about 45 seconds during the statue confrontation.  We missed the whole "Choice" dialogue.

We called the contents of the crate pretty early, just after Frank got a look at it's contents.  It just fit with how Locke was acting.  Curious to see just what kind of "candidate" Frank might be, or if it even matters now. 

Great to see the reunion with the people who are just happy to be together. 
Still think the Ben thing is lame-he should've known more about the whole deal. 

I LOVE the role-reversal concept and the season 2 parallels.  Ben is now the dupe that Locke was, Juliet is a Desmond-like wild card.  Sawyer is having Jack-like existential angst...



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Wray
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Registered: 02/18/09
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    05/15/09 at 05:47 AM
Reply with quote#9

Me too, Malcolm (about the cable issue), I'm in Davis and had to rewatch on ABC.com.

It makes sense to me that Ben was kept in the dark about so many things.  Surprising that Richard had some holes in his understanding as well.

We've seen Jacob off island.  Have we seen "Jacob's enemy"? Is this Christian Shephard?  Yemi?  Was it "Jacob's enemy" that was trapped in the cabin and not Jacob?  It seems that Jacob has been in the statue since the 1800's...



LotteryTicket
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    05/15/09 at 06:15 AM
Reply with quote#10

Wray, I tried to work out this scenario, too. However, I think it has to be Jacob in the cabin and he was trapped there by MIB so that he could not continue to recruit people to the island. We see that he is released in 2004 (by Hurley) and then recruits Sayid and Hurley after that have returned back to the "real world".

HurricaneLen
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    05/17/09 at 09:58 PM
Reply with quote#11

My first thought was that the 'Incident' sounds were 'Smokey-like' as well.

I haven't been on the Board in a few weeks, but these sounds fit with a theory I called into the Dummy-line a week ago about Smokey maybe being trapped/bound in some way, only to be released during the Incident. I was thinking it would explain his COMPLETE absence from the timeline pre-Danielle's crew. I heard the cacophony of rattling machinery/chains/steam/etc. and thought I was about to see my theory come true... maybe when we see what happened next?

Here's a twister - what if this 'Incident rebirth' of Smokey in '77 is also related to his passover of Juliette in S3 in the Jungle with Kate. What if Juliette was even assimilated INTO Smokey in some way during this event - now that would be messed up. I've also been thinking that the Incident probably marked the start of the fertility problems on the Island as well - making Juliette's involvement in said Incident doubly ironic since those problems would BRING her to the Island decades later. Especially interesting are the many clues in the second half of the season (and especially the finale) that Juliette was pregnant with James's baby.

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HurricaneLen
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    05/17/09 at 10:04 PM
Reply with quote#12

I'm also thinking Illana was refering to the Man in Black when she said 'he's not here' outside the Cabin. Remeber, Ben had never met Jacob, so how could he take Locke to HIS Cabin. I think he just knew that SOMETHING creepy was bound in that Cabin, we only EVER had Ben's word that it was "Jacob's Cabin" - we only saw flashes of someone and Christian Shepard actually IN the Cabin. The Machete in the Tapestry-chunk seemed a bit more like a threat than a note to me. She looked VERY upset when she saw the broken Ash-line, which would fit with her believing it was where their enemy was trapped.
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    05/23/09 at 08:23 PM
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Hurrricane, yes, I also think that Smokey, Juliet and the Swan Station equipment has merged 1977. The rewatch S1-5 should be interesting with this new incite.

In regard to Ilana and the box, I think that she was taking the body to Jacob. Maybe Jacob can raise the dead. We see him bring Locke back after the fall. I think of it like the pawn making it to the eighth row and being promoted.

The ash may have been created to keep MIB out (ash of Jacob). When the ash was disturbed (I think by Hurley), Jacob fled to the statue leaving a note for Ilana. Ilana burns the cabin. Is it possible that MIB/Smokey absorbed the cabin (like the Swan crane/chain/Juliet) at some point after the incident and can make it appear anywhere on the island similar to what it does with bodies? Is this Bernard and Rose's cabin?

Christian and Locke's bodies are not buried and can be used by MIB. That must be part of the reason for Others to bury bodies quickly (or send them out to sea).

And I am really confused about Flocke and Locke on Hydra Island. If Ilana has a conversation with Flocke and then goes on find a body in the Ajira cargo that happens to be identical to the one that just rowed off with Ben, she seems unfazed. That can't be her mission. She didn't really seem very concerned about Flocke getting to the main island.

Chris
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    05/24/09 at 01:21 PM
Reply with quote#14

Lotto, I had a similar thought to the viking ceremony and the treaty that we must bury these people.


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